Before I’ll go into any of the discussion I’ll restate the SCGT paint scoring:
“There are 20 painting points
available at the SCGT the first 15 are for having an entire army of minimum
standard models and trays etc as outlined earlier in the pack. If even one
model in the army is not to this standard then you forfeit the points. 5 points
will be added for a cohesive army, so all models and trays based the same etc
(ie not borrowed or from different armies and looks like an army).”
So basically the only deduction
is where the army was painted but not cohesive.
This is one of the topics which
comes up on tourneys on a fairly consistent basis and I suppose it has its
place in any valid discussions on tournament scoring.
Coolest Army at SCGT - Steve Foote. Hard to argue |
Why paint hit?
For me this is incredibly
obvious, if the visual aesthetic side of the game is required for a tournament
then it has to be the full thing or why bother at all?
I could play Warhammer with scraps of paper on the table and I just score through the box when a model dies, I can write on the unit name and it is very clear to my opponent what the unit is and the only thing you need to work round is TLoS on what has become a 2d game, but given UB is basically a more advanced version of this it clearly works.
I could play Warhammer with scraps of paper on the table and I just score through the box when a model dies, I can write on the unit name and it is very clear to my opponent what the unit is and the only thing you need to work round is TLoS on what has become a 2d game, but given UB is basically a more advanced version of this it clearly works.
Or I could play with nicely
sculpted models which are various shades of grey plastic (or metal)as sold by
manufacturers in their unpainted state, I guess most people would say that this
is visually an improvement over bits of paper.
So why does nobody challenge the need to have models if all it is
changing is the aesthetic but they push back furiously against the next step
which is to require the models to be painted?
My thinking is that most figure
designers release these models with the intent of them being painted, it’s
often mentioned on the box or similar, so if that is part of their intent for
the models then it seems a quite reasonable expectation that playing the game
with painted models is a sensible format (not saying it should always be the
case, but it is one reasonable approach).
And that is as far as I need to
go to justify paint scores to myself.
In summary
- Do you need models? –expect these to be fully built & appropriate (to comply with WYSIWIG requirements this will become a requirement)
- Should they be painted? – If the TO requires painted yes, and these should therefore painted to an acceptable standard (basically the same reason as assembled in that it makes it better to tell what is what).
So having accepted that paint
scores should be a thing, what do I think is an acceptable standard and how to
translate that to a scoring system?
Well SCGT takes one very simple approach, as long as it is fully painted
such that their judges consider it painted you get to play with the
models. If they don’t feel that is the
case then your models get taken off. As
you would expect with this the reality is everyone and there are no zeros. So the total impact of not having a
cohesively painted army is 5pts.
Effectively there is one metric that needed to be hit and 23 out of 190
players got hit with this penalty for not having cohesive armies.
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Best Painted at SCGT - Steve Wren |
I honestly can’t see how anyone can really have an issue with this, they
knew going in the only metric (assuming they read the pack), so to not put the
relatively small amount of effort required to make the basing the same across
the army and (where relevant) the paint scheme the same within each unit. Different units looking different will always
be acceptable so I can’t see anyone getting penalised for that as long as based
the same.
To my mind this still allows armies which look total junk to be taken to
the event and even score full points.
The next event I’ve just been to has a slightly more complex system.
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It's painted, what's the problem? |
CTW Paint Score
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Best Painted at CTW - A touch beyond bare minimum! |
Base Colours (4 Points)
All parts of each model have appropriate colours neatly
applied. Colours do not overlap into adjoining or inappropriate parts of the
model. Neither undercoat nor the material the model is made from should be
visible unless it is clearly appropriate as a base colour (e.g leather areas
being unpainted brown undercoat).
Bases (4 Points)
All bases are textured and painted. As a minimum, the top
of each base is covered with flock, sand or another basing material, or a
pretextured base (such as a sculpted resin base) is used. The sides of each
base are painted in a complementary or contrasting colour. Neither undercoat
nor the material the base is made from should be visible unless it is clearly
appropriate as a base colour.
Movement Trays (4 Points)
All units of two or more models have an appropriately
sized movement tray. Appropriate movement trays are large enough to fit all
models in the unit, without being significantly larger than necessary. If the
movement tray is for a unit that can get larger during the game, extra space
for the potential new models is acceptable. If the movement tray is for a
skirmishing unit, a way of clearly marking the appropriate distance between
each model should be present. This can include physical dividers or a
magnetised tray and models.
Movement trays are painted and textured in the same way as bases. Actually not enforced, plain painted movement trays was fine.
Tidiness (4 Points)
Is the painting tidy i.e. are the colours used in the
correct areas of the models or does the paint look like it has been ‘blobbed
on’? Excessive amounts of transparency showing undercoat or other base colours
where inappropriate may also be marked down.
Highlighting/Shading (4 Points)
All large areas of each model have some form of
highlighting and / or shading. Areas such as belts, straps, small claws and
teeth do not need to be highlighted or shaded. All methods are acceptable,
including, but not restricted to, dry brushing and over brushing, layered
highlights, blending and shading or washing with inks or products such as Army
Painter Quick Shade.
Cohesiveness (4 Points)
All models in the army are clearly identifiable as
belonging to that army. Armies containing models that are clearly from a
different army or painted in a colour scheme that is not consistent with the
rest of the army will not receive these points.
All bases and movement trays should be in the same
consistent scheme. Movement trays should match bases or be in a complementary
contrasting scheme.
As with SCGT there is a cohesive requirement which people
must adhere to but in addition to that there are a number of sub categories
around ‘painted’ to ensure model, base & movement trays are all painted and
then 2 marginally more advanced requirements which are basically paint where it
should be (tidy) and not just flat colour (highlight/shading).
One of my many basic but cohesive armies - full points! |
On looking through the scores the vast majority of people picked up most of the points, so there was no significant issues it would seem. I was very pleased to see the 3rd placed player (would have won it if not for paint hit) didn't complain but just stated:
"Was pretty pissed at myself for losing the cohesive points and dropping from 1st to 3rd. Could have easily finished them if i had have thought about it."
Fantastic to see a player hold his hand up and accept fault due to lack of effort on his part rather than the usual claims you see of 'unobtainable standards' or 'this is a gaming event, painting shouldn't matter' yada yada.
Sure I don't have a problem with paint awards having no bearing on a tournament result, but I like to see a pack promote a basic level of painting that is achievable to all (you're deluding youreself if you say otherwise outside a disability) so for me I hope these requirements continue as I feel they only benefit the overall appeal of events.
Agree with pretty much all of this Dave, in my opinion there is no reason that the above minimum standard cannot be met by the vast majority of people. Time and effort are the lacking factors not skill. The first fully painted army I did when I was 12 would meet those criteria and my lizardmen (1st proper army after usual girls and booze uni break from the hobby) would have easily passed too.
ReplyDeleteI'm absolutely adamant that any person can put a very good 2400pt table top standard army on the table with less than 50 hours of time committed. 10 weeks at 5 hours a week really isnt asking much in my opinion! Anyway just me :)
I can understand and i cann really think alike. I love painting, and painting comes (for me) a head of gaming. Still, it really depends where you live. I attended a swiss Event and got disqualified because my army didnt meet the requ. painting lvl. i just shrugged and left. Even though this bugs me a great deal, since i love painting and really try my best. But since i live rural, i barly get any feedback on the painting and now i am really unshure about the lvl i can and should produce. (some pics of the army on Twitter @Seraphinum).
ReplyDeleteSo, YES for painting, YES for painting to at least a decent level - but NO to usless feedback to players who dont meat the req. If we can guide those, we can grow as a community in a whole. I hope i was able to show my point. So if there are any good/decent painters willing to give a feedback to lower lvl painters like myself we would be far more understanding i think ^^ Best wishes - Niclas
Great point. I didn't think to mention it but it's a pet peeve to be given a paint score but not told where you dropped points.
ReplyDeleteTo be fair most UK events will have the checklist on the pack if it's scored in this manner so usually covered.
Niclas, in your example that is just awful TO engagement. Would take seconds to tell you but instead just said no you can't play and not to say why is an awful way to treat players who've made the effort to travel for an event.
Totally agree, that is not a fair way to treat people. I would not have sent you away thus preventing you from play and only in extreme cases remove a model from play. To be clear here in my opinion I think the above framework only needs to prevent the most extreme of abuses and unpaintedness from winning "best overall" and to provide a fair way of grading your level of painting.
ReplyDeleteHaving just looked at your twitter feed of pictures I am amazed that this happened, your stuff looks great and definitely should meet any minimum standard imo. Were some of your models unpainted at the tournament? At first glance I think you have been treated very unfairly. A good thing to do going forward is score yourself (be honest!) against a painting rubric from one of the american tournaments (WaaaghPaca or Northstar?) or the Bad Dice "Blood and Glory" scoring system and aim for a middle score :)
Well, in actual fact the situation was a bit weirder in that he had a model that was part finished, and if he had done less work on it he would have had full points (hard to describe or even remember the full details).
ReplyDeleteThis is the third rail of WFB topics, its too complex and far ranging to get my views succinct (which is why I haven't even tackled it properly on my own blog).
There is a significant differential between two important points though:
1) Has an army met the criteria set out? (and the related question, are these 'far' criteria?). Tied to this is consistency of application of scores and of marking (something the second event you mentioned did not do (in application) - despite stating that armies would be marked when deployed and set aside for inspection mine was marked with a brief glance at a dead pile mid game), and this is the area that historically causes the most controversy (less so these days as packs have become simpler, but still happens).
2) Why are there painting points/does it do its job? Is the other, more fundamental question (the answer is it very rarely does its job) that could lead to an essay of its own.
If only you had a blog on which to write that essay...
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